Palin and Angle Didn’t Use Political Rhetoric, They Gave Jared Loughner Instructions.

Incitement to violence?  Conspiracy to commit murder?  Soliciting a criminal act against a specific individual?  Willful disregard?  All of these, and perhaps others, are questions that warrant, at least, an investigation.

Both Palin, and Angle, have garnered a great deal of press for their violent rhetoric.  Both have been warned that their public calls for “second amendment remedies”, and to “don’t retreat, reload” – accompanied by maps with gun-sites directly identifying Congresswoman Giffords, among others – could lead to acts of violence.  They were made aware of the potential dangers, and yet they chose to continue on their course.

Immediately following the incident, Sarah Palin scrubbed her websites of all such material.  This can easily be interpreted as a profession of guilt.  Too little, too late, but a sign that, perhaps finally, she realized her culpability for Jared Lee Loughner’s actions.  After all, he did pursue Sharron Angles “second amendment remedies” against an elected politician of the opposing party identified with gun-sites on a map distributed publicly by Sarah Palin.

This goes beyond just rhetoric.  This is a direct prescription for an act of gun violence by Sharron Angle against a public figure identified as a gun target by Sarah Palin.  This is not simply rhetoric.  These are clear instructions of what to do, and against whom to do it.  This warrants a criminal investigation against these two individuals and should potentially be expanded to include other politicians, and pundits, that aided and abetted them in this scheme.

The current conservative, Tea Party, congress is unlikely to initiate any such action.  State and local police are unlikely to get any support, and likely to receive a great deal of opposition, to any investigation that proceeds down this road.  If there is going to be a real investigation, it can only come through the action and support of communities and individuals dedicated to ending the violent threats, and calls to arms, relentlessly repeated by far right politicians and their media counterparts.

Perhaps Attorney General Holder will consider this miscarriage of free speech rights, by these two individuals, that has resulted in the loss of life of American officials, rather than pursuing Julian Assange and WikiLeaks that has only resulted in the establishments embarrassment.  WikiLeaks has made no such prescriptions to violence, or resulted in any deaths.  Sharron Angle and Sarah Palin have obviously crossed the line of ‘yelling fire in a crowded theater.’  If anyone should be investigated, and charged, it should be these individuals, and their supporters, and not those who have simply exposed the American governments dirty laundry.

These two people have acted in a way that can arguably be attributed to the cause of the deaths of six individuals, including a federal judge and a young child, as the actions they prescribed – the second amendment remedy against a particularly targeted individual – were being carried out.  We must call for an official investigation, subpoenaing of the posts that Palin has scrubbed from her sites, and any other relevant material from all connected parties, and exercise the power of the American judicial system.  Let the courts settle it, but insist on it, and insist that they follow the letter of the law.

Editors Note:  ‘Must-Read’ articles to help get a full treatment of the subject.

Tucson’s Tragedy: A Symptom of America’s Erotization of Violence

Guns, Violent Political Rhetoric, and Insanity: America’s Deadly Mix

Palin, Rush, Everyone: Stop Hiding Behind The First Amendment

The American Taliban Strikes: Assassination Attempt of Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ)

Mark Potock of SPLC Discusses Who Jared Lee Loughner Is

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114 Responses to Palin and Angle Didn’t Use Political Rhetoric, They Gave Jared Loughner Instructions.

  1. -23 Vote -1 Vote +1Don Walker
    January 9, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    Great piece. I can see that you gave this a lot if thought. It’s the only way a left-wing communist could have possibly responded to this tragedy. Anything, at all cost to support your cause. I’m embarrassed for you.

    • +19 Vote -1 Vote +1Tom
      January 9, 2011 at 1:49 pm

      The author gave the post more thought than you did your response. He didn’t call anyone names, just stated the fact’s. It’s nice that your embarrassed for him, but only a right wing tool would use the tragedy of 9/11 to lie the country into war. Anything at all cost to support YOUR cause.

      • -6 Vote -1 Vote +1bulldawg
        January 9, 2011 at 2:16 pm

        No I don’t believe much thought went into this article at all, if you watched the State run media this morning I would say they did his job for him. Durbin with his stab at Palin, Clyburn using his claim to rhetoric to MLK. MSNBC has at least 1 moron a week who calls for death in the streets on the teaparty and bath tub boy keith wants to blame Beck and Rush. Now we have another amateur who wants to blame someone other than the little bastard who pulled the trigger, but your right he didn’t call anyone names.

        • -3 Vote -1 Vote +1Diane Hart
          January 10, 2011 at 5:58 am

          you are so right. Keith instigates sutff as well with his worst person of the world, now he pontificates on the right wing being the cause as if he doent incite hate on his dumb show. I cant stand him or rachel or any of of them The guy, the shooter was MENTALLY ILL, why none of his friend or family ever got him help is the real root of this tragedy,

          • +6 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
            January 10, 2011 at 8:54 am

            … why would politicians and pundits would give directions for “second amendment remedies” and identify Gabrielle Giffords as a target, knowing that there are people like this out there? Are they truly without blame?

          • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Maggie May
            January 10, 2011 at 8:43 pm

            Keith was also the only TV pundit to own up and state that he needed to stop the rhetoric as well. Those on the Right? Not one. They’re too busy covering their pathetic asses. And, for the record? Charles Manson never killed anyone either. He just told his minions who to target and where they lived. Sound familiar? Palin has blood on her hands. As does Angle, Bachmann, Beck and the rest of the RW hate spewers.

    • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Jusef Goldberg
      January 9, 2011 at 2:26 pm

      Julian Assange should have Palin in court tomorrow … explaining her wishes

    • +4 Vote -1 Vote +1balancedbill
      January 9, 2011 at 6:59 pm

      If Adolf Palin had plastered gunsights onto images of our president she would already have been arrested by the Secret Service and duly so. Palin is an inciter with a barely average IQ. Her provocative and irresponsible comments and attitudes have lead to the Arizona killings for which all loyal Republicans should shudder with regret.

      • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 8:23 pm

        How exactly do you know what Palin’s IQ is? And what is yours?

    • +8 Vote -1 Vote +1motorfingaz
      January 9, 2011 at 9:59 pm

      More ignorance from a cold blooded evil right winger. You freaks are the threat this nation faces.

  2. Vote -1 Vote +1Deb
    January 9, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Don, You hit the nail on the head. Hate talk doesn’t work.

    • +5 Vote -1 Vote +1TruthBeTold
      January 9, 2011 at 1:27 pm

      It did for Palin didn’t it?

  3. -4 Vote -1 Vote +1NOYB
    January 9, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Wow, intelligent you surely are! But nice to know how you feel about the issue – in which future post will you be calling for Obama to be charged in connection to this incident? I’m of course referring to hateful and dangerous rhetoric such as “If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun.” I’m expecting that post anytime now.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Maggie May
      January 10, 2011 at 8:45 pm

      A metaphorical comment is light years away from posting crosshairs, oh, forgive me, surveyors symbols over a geographic area along with the comments that they’ve diagnosed the problem, you know the solution. There was no way this could end but badly.

  4. -1 Vote -1 Vote +12ysur2ysub
    January 9, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    Charging them would be a revenge act that would only inflame passions even more. I’m not sure that they could be considered, “responsible,” for the lone gunman’s acts, especially as he appears to be mentally challenged. Should DeNiro have been prosecuted for uttering a line in a movie that suggested the President be killed because someone with diminished capacity acts on the suggestion?

    I think the consciences of those who know they are responsible will indict them for the rest of their lives. And they will curb their behavior from hence forth. What goes around comes around, sometimes in the damnedest and saddest ways. We should not stir up more crazies, or we are sure to end up in a civil war against the kooks.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1chris
      January 9, 2011 at 6:27 pm

      Wow

  5. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1NOYB
    January 9, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    An of course, we now know you guys’ opinion on Manson’s connection to Columbine. It’s great to have finally gotten that straightened out.

  6. +4 Vote -1 Vote +1AnotherBird
    January 9, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    No, they shouldn’t be changed. It is hard thing to challenge free speech. It is important that Palin and Angle to apologize. Also, they should give lectures on the importance of responsible speech and state that the language they used wasn’t appropriate for public discussion. I know that is wishful thinking.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Tony
      January 10, 2011 at 3:34 pm

      If they were charged, free speech wouldn’t enter into it, legally speaking.

      Arizona Code – Revised Statutes §13-1102 Negligent homicide -
      Section A: A person commits negligent homicide if with criminal negligence the person causes the death of another person, including an unborn child.

      It could be argued legally that constant, repeated hate speech was a reckless and negligent act that caused the death of 6 people by pushing an imbalanced person over the edge.

      The prosecutor would only have to prove that the person charged acted recklessly or negligently and should have know that there was a danger of serious or injury or death to the people involved.

      Arizona has a similar case in the Sedona Sweat lodge deaths. James Arthur Ray is being charged with 3 counts of manslaughter because of what he said to people in one of his workshops, not because of anything he did.

      It could be a landmark case. I would like to see the Koch brothers, Garet Lewis of KNST, the station manager of KNST and clearchannel charged. Since corporations are now people, the good people of Arizona should be able to charge them with manslaughter.

      I don’t see Sarah Palin as anything other than a spokes model for much more sinister forces

  7. +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Xocowolf
    January 9, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    I wouldn’t make the connection unless the suspect(s) names them as a motivational factor. Anything else would turn this investigation into a hysterical circus; we can’t afford that.
    They’ll have their day in court, and Congress is going to have their own investigation. Subpoena — let the whole story be told and recorded.

  8. +4 Vote -1 Vote +1Jim Irwin
    January 9, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    How about going after Michele Bachmann (R-Minn, 6th District) from the U.S. House as well. She said that she wants to see people “armed and dangerous” regarding PRESIDENT OBAMA and his tax plan in the past year.
    She’s a loon!

  9. Pingback:

    Vote -1 Vote +1World Spinner

  10. +6 Vote -1 Vote +1I Am
    January 9, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    Palin is indeed a domestic terrorist! It is people like her that cause much of the violence seen in America today.

    • -7 Vote -1 Vote +1karl
      January 9, 2011 at 2:01 pm

      Your terrorist…. lol may indeed save this country.. Like Paul Revere, George Washington and all the “patriots” did a few hundred years ago.. Yeah they would be called terrorists now.. you proud American Nazi?

      • Vote -1 Vote +1Maggie May
        January 10, 2011 at 8:47 pm

        Save it from what? Exactly what freedoms have you lost since Obama took office? *crickets* And, unless you make over $250K? Your taxes went DOWN.

  11. -3 Vote -1 Vote +1Winterboarder
    January 9, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    You all got to sit back and see the big picture. Americans have been split into Republicans and Democrats by the media. However they all work together on this and they put economic pressures on the population. Now, on one side you have Palin and other chicken heads and on the other you have communists like Piven and Van Jones calling for violent revolt. They all call for violence. Because of this you will see a lot more crazies come out of the woodwork doing crazy stuff. But what they really want is massive unrest where we all kill each other on the streets.
    That will enable them do declare martial law and loss of all our freedoms. No more freedom of speech, no more rights to bare arms, no more constitution. At that time you will all see what socialism really is. National Socialists or Communists they all kill the same: in mass.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Tony
      January 10, 2011 at 3:36 pm

      Thank you. You could not have explained Loughner’s mindset any more clearer.

  12. +6 Vote -1 Vote +1Claire
    January 9, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Yes – they should be charged with inciting to murder. They should be tried – and sentenced.

    If I made these comments / created these websites – and these events took place – I have no doubt that I would be rounded up / charged and sentenced.

    Why should these “media dolls” be exempt?

  13. -6 Vote -1 Vote +1Mike
    January 9, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    People like you need to be charged for spreading this hatred. MILLIONS of people use that symbol on presentations and slides and such. It doesnt mean they want them shot or killed, you buffoon.

    Should we charge the auto manufacturers for making what are essentially weapons of death?

    You are a victim of a divisive media. I am a Democrat and it sickens me that this kid is a far left whacko – just as much as it would sicken me if he were a far right whacko. This nation has no place for wing nuts and let it be said, the actions of these whackos wont be tolerated, left or right.

    Stop spreading hate and start fighting the problem.

  14. -22 Vote -1 Vote +1Lois Phillips
    January 9, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    IT is ALL Barry Hussein Obama’s fault since HE is The President. Nobody else can be blamed in any manner. It is Obama’s fault 100%. This moslem leader we have did not properly defend this country.

    It is the same as why a gallon of gasoline will be 5 dollars a gallon. That too will Barry Hussein Obama’s fault. Not Bush this time. Not Palin nobody but the guy in charge.

    • +6 Vote -1 Vote +1balancedbill
      January 9, 2011 at 7:11 pm

      Lois, are you,by any means a “birther” too ? Did you make it through the 8th grade ? Do you know that the original Boston Tea Party was conducted by left-wing revolutionary leaders ?; and that the losers in the American Revolution were the Tories ? and that the Tories were the conservatives , and that they lost in the American Revolution ? (The Tory Party in Canada,England,Australia etc. are still the conservatives in those nations) As far as Obamas birthplace is concerned, why did’nt that nasty Democrat Governor of Hawaii,Linda Lingle tell it like it is over the last two years !!???….o-oh,,,,forgot that Linda is a Republican…my bad.

    • +5 Vote -1 Vote +1motorfingaz
      January 9, 2011 at 10:01 pm

      Lois, you keep believing your right wing BS! America and the world despises your racist ilk and thank goodness gutless creatures of your mentality is diminishing in numbers as we speak!

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Maggie May
      January 10, 2011 at 8:56 pm

      You mean kinda like how Bush didn’t defend the country on 9/11? And, he’s not a Muslim, Lois. Turn off Glenn Beck.

  15. +6 Vote -1 Vote +1NJ
    January 9, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Yes, As Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes once said, free speech ends at the point of shouting “fire” in a crowded movie theater.

    For decades, Republicans and Democrats, Conservatives and Progressives, may not have respected each other’s points of view, but would of course, defend their right to have those points of view. Might not agree with them but the limits were set. No one even remotely suggested that disrespect and even violent verbal disagreement was allowable.

    All this changed with the rise of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party on the political stage.

    Palin, Angle and their like have made it acceptable to assert that those who do not hold to their narrow and extremely conservative interpretation of the law, and the constitution and government, regardless of a very long history of judicial interpretation of the law and much of what government does as “constitutional, to be called traitors, and much of the legislation passed over the last 200 plus years as “unconstitutional. Though most of them do not have the slightest background in either constitutional law or history.

    First they started out having their Tea Party supporters attend the “town hall” meetings and advised that they simply “shout down” anyone who was trying to speak in favor of health reform. The next step is obvious. If you cannot stop them from speaking in public, you simply stop them permanently.

    Palin and Angle, for all there assertions that they did not support violence, do have a responsibility to not put ideas into the heads of the young and impressionable, who even when not mentally unbalanced, have a tendency to go to extremes.

    Even if this young man cannot be directly linked to extreme conservative organizations, their rhetoric most certainly influenced this young man and set him on his course.

  16. +6 Vote -1 Vote +1Bryan
    January 9, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Criminal charges probably, but there is also the Civil courts. It worked against OJ. All the money from speaking and books will be going to their victims families.

    • +6 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 2:38 pm

      Excellent point. But, I would like to see the government, the AG, if not the Congress or Senate, use any investigatory powers they have, including the FBI, to simply answer this question. Does a prima facie case exist? Does the assailant site Angle, Palin, or anyone else, as direct motivation, or instruction, for his actions?
      As ‘CLAIRE’ mentioned above; had it been anyone else that published these incitements, they would be answering to law enforcement. Perhaps this is an avenue that Mr. Loughner’s attorney will pursue.

      • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Lea Reiter
        January 10, 2011 at 7:44 am

        Unfortunately, we have an administration whose AG is easy on war criminals, tough on whistle blowers, and relentlessly violates the rights of families of immigrants. I hold no fantasies about the “Justice” Department doing the right thing.

  17. Vote -1 Vote +1LedZep
    January 9, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    My initial reaction was this guy had to be a T-party guy. will have to wait and see..

    • +4 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 2:47 pm

      I think he was politically, mentally, emotionally….. generally confused. Rather than pinning him to a group, I tend to think of him as a disturbed personality that may have been motivated by the tacit, if not direct, instructions of others. In my related article “Guns, God, Political Rhetoric & Insanity: America’s Deadly Mix”,
      http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/01/08/guns-god-political-rhetoric-americas-deady-mix/
      I try to make that point. I don’t see the direct evidence that he was a ‘Right-Wing Radical’ or a ‘Left-Wing Radical’. That article includes his video as well as the full text from that video typed out. It shows a very disturbed mind. Palin, Angle, et al, are playing with “yelling FIRE in a crowded theater” when they make prescriptions for violence to a public that includes individuals suffering from issues such as this man who is able to access anti-personnel weapons so easily. They must have known this. they were warned of it. He is responsible for his actions. Perhaps they should be held responsible for theirs.

      • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1chris
        January 9, 2011 at 7:21 pm

        Palin, angle, Beck, hannity, Limbaugh, and all the rest of the crazies wont rest until every man woman and child can carry an ak47 with a grenade launcher attachment to school and church and federal buildings. Then they can keep convincing these poor poor demented crazies on the right to do their bidding and they’ll have their army. They wont need to be elected. Just convincing enough to get their cult following. Then the U.S. government wont be necessary. They can take over and “target” anyone they like. They can “take out” any one they like. They can use 2nd amendment remedies against anyone they believe needs to be remedied ( lets forget the criminal justice system that we have relied on for years ). I like to have a gun for hunting. A few of them actually. I can’t think of one reason in this day and age that i would need an automatic weapon. I don’t need to carry it around with me without special permission (exceptions would be understandable) unless I’m going to and from hunting. This whole gun thing is rediculous. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Arizona have the most lenient gun laws in the country. Everyone basically carry a gun right. Did that save any lives during this attack or did it cost lives having such lenient laws? Seriously, think about it. I’m sure someone will say,”if someone’s had a gun they could have stopped him!”. To that i say bullcrap!!! I bet someone in the area had a gun but when caught off-guard you don’t have time to react quick enough. That’s the problem with that theory. How long did it take him to shoot all the people he shot? Do you really think you would be fast enough to react or would you be safer if he didn’t have the ability to get the gun to begin with? Think about it.

        • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 9, 2011 at 8:15 pm

          A person’s reaction time would obvioulsy depend on a number of factors, including, but not limited to, their physical condition and their firearms training. I wouldn’t neccessarily use myself as a benchmark for what other people might or might not be able to do.

  18. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1cyd
    January 9, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    Yes, they should be held accountable, but I agree with the poster that said use the civil court system…hit Palin where it would hurt her the most…in her pocketbook…that seems to be all she cars about. Palin should be hiding her head in complete shame…but I doubt she has the humility, dignity or class to do just that, she basically admitted even SHE thinks she is culpable when she took all her hate rhetoric off her website, yesterday….if not ashamed why did she remove it?

    Hopefully, this will finally put and end to Greg Stillson’s…uh I mean Sarah Palin’s political aspirations.

    On a final note, I wonder what Ms. Pale N’ Comparison would be saying if it was HER 10 year old girl Piper that had been mowed down, because of some psycho loser that took a hate mongers political rhetoric as gospel truth?

  19. -3 Vote -1 Vote +1jbs
    January 9, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    If the writer was being honest with his/her self, they would have added DailyKOS to the list along with Palin…
    http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/08/my-congresswoman-voted-against-nancy-pelosi-and-is-now-dead-to-me-eerie-daily-kos-hit-piece-on-gabrielle-giffords-just-two-days-before-assassination-attempt-on-her/
    but, “never waste a crisis”, correct?

    • +4 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 3:49 pm

      Those words, in retrospect, were inappropriate, and after the tragic events were removed. However, they were not a prescription for action, as were Sharron Angles with her call for “second amendment remedies”, against a person labeled with gun-sites by Sarah Palin who called for people to “Don’t retreat, RELOAD!” There is a big difference, practically and legally, between a retrospectively poor choice of words, and incitement, with instructions, to violence.

      • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 4:23 pm

        “They were not a prescription for action”. That’s a little subjective, don’t you think? But for the sake of argument, let’s just say a left-wing loon had acted upon those words, under the guise that they thought the words meant something that they didn’t. Would you still prosecute those who made the initial statements? There is no way, just no way, that Palin or any of the rest saw their words as a prescription to action, that’s just crazy. I honestly think you *know* that.

        • Vote -1 Vote +1balancedbill
          January 9, 2011 at 7:20 pm

          If you were to post signs with crosshairs superimposed upon the head of the President of the USA, then that is crossing a line from civility to criminality.

          If a 16 year-old were to post images of crosshairs over the faces of classmates on a site such as Facebook, that irresponsible 16 year-old would at least be investigated by the police and most likely suspended from high school, and most certainly lose his “right” to a Facebook site.

          • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
            January 9, 2011 at 8:10 pm

            I would never do it, nor promote it, and I would actively speak out against it. In the legal sense, I guess you would have to prove intent.

  20. -9 Vote -1 Vote +1cynical in texas
    January 9, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Lets charge Al Gore in connection with this too….after all, he invented the internet!! And the whacko that did the shooting posted on the internet! Makes about as much sense as this article….

    • -2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 9, 2011 at 4:26 pm

      Or YouTube, since they gave him a forum in which to speak. But that’s the thing about the left; they simply *cannot* hold anyone responsible for their own actions (people with AIDS, welfare mothers, drug addicts, etc…)….unless you are a Republican of course.

    • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1balancedbill
      January 9, 2011 at 7:20 pm

      erudite reply.

      • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 8:26 pm

        Thanks, I appreciate it!!!

  21. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Tom
    January 9, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    You’re out of your mind! If that’s the course you want America to take I’m sure you have done enough to be convicted of somebody else’s crime too! All it would take is a little digging. By you philosophy everyone is guilty. Lock’em all up!

    • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 4:42 pm

      It is not a philosophy, it is a question of the application of current law, and my reason to believe that there is sufficient cause to warrant an investigation, and, potentially, prosecution or litigation. Tacit threats aside; this is not an issue of digging for tangential reasons to connect somebody to any crime. This is well know, published, televised, statements. Their statements call for ( describing the weapon, the victim, and a motivation ) precisely what Jared Loughner did: Sharron Angles “second ammendment remedy” against a person that Sarah Palin targeted. They were even warned, repeatedly, that their statements could result in something exactly such as this. If Jared Loughner identifies their instructions as his motivation… speculation may be moot. ( Court TV ratings would go through the roof. lol There could be a ‘Sarah Behind Bars’ reality show. She could write her prison manifesto. Ha)

      • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 5:03 pm

        What would you wager this will never get off the ground legally? It falls into the same category as proclaiming George W. Bush was a War Criminal and should be prosecuted. The left has access to millions of dollars and the best lawyers in the world and you can bet if there was anything to this at all, in a legal sense, they would be all over it. It’s so odd that NO ONE made any attempt whatsoever to prosecute Bush, despite the left claiming their was “clear” evidence.

        • Vote -1 Vote +1chris
          January 9, 2011 at 6:43 pm

          It would have been a huge blemish on our country to run with the bush thing. Even if it could have been proven, who wanted to expend the capital doing so when we couldn’t spend $5 without the Republicans talking about wasting money. Besides, what would there be to gain? We give the nation an even bigger black eye and spend a ton of money and years in the process. I bet that would ever happen.

          • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
            January 9, 2011 at 7:57 pm

            But the point is, the left woiuldn’t have been worried about a blemish on the country. They couldn’t “run” with the Bush thing simply because they knew it wouldn’t fly. WIth all the money of the Pelosis, Kennedy’s, Clinton’s and Kerry’s, do you not think they would have taken out Bush if they could have?

  22. +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
    January 9, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    Is there not a *single* liberal/leftist/ACLU type lawyer who will not take such an obvious slam dunk case straight to the court room and get Palin, Limbaugh and the rest locked up? Nah. Because any lawyer reading the comments suggesting such a thing must be wondering what has happened to our education system. Mark it down; no one but the gunman will be prosecuted.

    • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 6:30 pm

      It’s only been one day. Legislation criminalizing such threats has already been proposed. The question of the culpability of right-wing politicians and pundits is being asked on every major news station, and in every major publication. Tellingly, right-wing politicians, television stations, and publications, have gone on a very offensive campaign of defensiveness. This is not a wild leap of speculation. This is a serious question that is being investigated. I’m not optimistic about prosecution… but not for the same reasons you state. Civil litigation is perhaps another matter altogether.

    • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1balancedbill
      January 9, 2011 at 7:30 pm

      You don’t understand the legal system,this is not a matter for an independent attorney at this time,rather it is a consideration for a criminal prosecutors office.At a later date the victims families and the survivors have the right to press a damages lawsuit against Adolf Palin and the other Republican blackguards who have sown these awful seeds of violence.
      The only “good” that has emerged is that this shooting forever tarnishes the names of Palin,Angle etc. who always now, will be associated with gun violence.

      • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 7:55 pm

        So will it be filed or not? You seem pretty confident. If you were filing the suit, what would you alledge, in the complaint, as a first cause of action against Palin and Limbaugh? Also, cite chapter and verse the case law involved here.

        • Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
          January 9, 2011 at 9:06 pm

          I didn’t say ‘I’ was going to try the case, lol.. and certainly not in the comment section of an article. Is this your idea of the next reasonable step in a debate? lol
          “cite chapter and verse the case law involved here.”
          yeah, right.
          You want a legal brief? ha.
          I presented ‘my’ prima facie case in the article.

          • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
            January 9, 2011 at 9:54 pm

            Of course I wasn’t suggesting that you were going to try the case; my questions were meant to see how much you actually knew about the legal process. In other words, are you just wasting our time here, or do you have some real reason, an *educated* reason, to believe there is a potential court case here? So I think you’ve just proved you have no expertise in this matter.

      • Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
        January 9, 2011 at 8:59 pm

        I only referred to an individual lawyer in the context of civil litigation, I believe, regardless, if you think public prosecutors, or defenders, lack the ambition to pursue a political rainmaker, you’re the one that lacks understanding of the legal system. A case like this is a career maker, regardless of which side of the aisle you’d sit on. A big name defense attorney could take this case, pro bono, and use this as part of a mitigating defense. A public, federal, prosecutor could see it as necessary to expand the investigation if the evidence, or the defendants statements, warrants. There are plenty of options and scenarios that go beyond simple systemic legal procedure and include idiosyncratic factors, whether it be criminal prosecution, or subsequent civil litigation.

        • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 9, 2011 at 9:58 pm

          Then it shouldn’t be a problem at all then. Surely there is left leaning lawyer out there somewhere who will file this suit, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on it.

  23. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1chris
    January 9, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    If it is proven that the kid was under the influence of Beck or Hannity or Palin and did what he did because of what they said do you think it means nothing. This is not Robert deniro in a movie role. This is real life and if these pundits and commentators want to encourage their listeners to “reload” and “take aim ” and to” look for second amendment remedies” then what on earth do you think they would be encouraging? Everyone knows the right wing is the gun wing and to use these terms is not an accident. It is meant to instill fear in Democrats but it is not working. Democrats are not going to be deterred to do the right thing justice because of a few threats. They will continue doing what’s right for this country because its what they do.

    • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 9, 2011 at 7:48 pm

      Are you suggesting that Palin knew, and intended, via her words and actions, that someone should actually go out and murder someone?

      • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
        January 9, 2011 at 9:13 pm

        She was publicly warned, repeatedly. She was told that this was a potential result. If she chose to disregard those warnings, it was a ‘willful disregard’ for the safety of the people on her hit list, ie Gabrielle Giffords.

        • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 9, 2011 at 10:10 pm

          So you agree she had no actual intent?

  24. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1ANTIFA
    January 9, 2011 at 6:58 pm

    Very interesting, and clever, argument. Perhaps some lawyer will see a political rainmaker here. I’m sure it’s being considered.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 9, 2011 at 7:44 pm

      The left has literally millions of dollars and hundreds of lawyers at their disposal in which to file a legitimate suit, if they so desire. With all of that on their side, it should be quite clear to you that if the suit is not filed, it’s for the very good reason that it simply has ZERO chance of ever making it to the courtroom. If there was a legitimate case here, it will not take weeks and months in which to do it. It doesn’t matter what you may “want” or what is being “talked about”. Folks, this is nothing more than left-wing over the top anger from the leftist blogosphere and nothing more.

  25. -5 Vote -1 Vote +1dep diggity
    January 9, 2011 at 7:01 pm

    Once again another liberal writes a hit piece before he has the facts. Hey moron this guy is a registered dem! His favorite books include the communist manifesto and mien kompf the materials of a left wing nut not a right wing one. Oh also he was an athiest another characteristic of a lefty. Oh btw he attended simular rallies in 2007 long before anyone knew the name Sarah Palin or Susan Angle. Also even if he was a right wing nut job as this article implies, Sarah Palins map is obviously symbolic to anyone with a brain. This article should b taken down if for no other reason than its just out n out incorrect besides the fact that its poorly written.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 9, 2011 at 10:48 pm

      I never refer to him as right-wing, only as a confused and unstable person. I refer to right wing politicians and pundits but I do not refer to this man as being either left wing or right wing. From his writings, I don’t believe his political identification was clear to himself, let alone any one else. Please read more carefully before you embarrass yourself by calling someone a moron. If what you say is true, that he attended a rallies in the past without violence, and that it has only been since Angle and Palin that he has become deadly violent, you make my point for me. Your statement supports my assertion. Thank you.

      • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 9, 2011 at 11:03 pm

        But if this person was confused and unstable, as you assert, why is it then beyond reason to believe that he also misunderstood the words of Palin, Limbaugh and all the rest of the right wing folks? Do you not find it a little odd that millions of people have attended tea party rallies and listen to Rush and Hannity every day and never do things like this character did?

    • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Tony
      January 10, 2011 at 3:54 pm

      Well, I LIVE in Tucson, and I can tell you that the ONLY people who talke about Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto in the same breath are teapartiers. If you lived here and heard what I hear on right wing hate radio every morning, Loughler’s seemingly incoherent philosophy would become much clearer. Not every right winger is a theist. The 2012 prophesy is popular with a lot of white supremacists cults around Northern Arizona. Smoking pot is not something limited to those on the left around here – it’s everywhere. A left winger would never try to join the military, nor would he call someone a terrorist for having an abortion. The anti-government Alex Jones inspired conspiracy theorist is very common around here. We have a diverse tea party with a lot of left-libertarians white males who are very, very angry that their white skin privileges are being slowly eroded. Right wing radio is very skillfull at directing their anger towards the target of the week, Obama, Giffords, Grijalva, government in general, Peta, feminists, immigrants … it goes on and on. Also, a lot of people I went to high school with were left leaning in high school but have moved far to the right once they fell in with groups lead by strong personalities. I’ve known a lot or former anarchists who became Ron Paul Libertarians and then moved farther and farther towards the racist skin head crowd in under a year. Anyway, if you lived in Tucson and listened to what comes out of clear channel every day, you would understand why so many people are looking at right wing media. Wanting to “assasinate” (Loughler’s own words) Gabby Giffords is a something that any sane person in Tucson can only associate with the local tea party and with right wing radio. If the tapes of Garet Lewis’ morning show were all made public, especially around the election, I doubt that there’s a jury that wouldn’t hold somebody with the right wing media responsible for the deaths of those 6 innocent human beings.

  26. Vote -1 Vote +1JJ
    January 9, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Mien Kompf is a far-right wing publication. You’re argument is not based on facts. dep diggity.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 9, 2011 at 10:05 pm

      Hitler and Mein Kampf were “right wing”? How so? Hitler was a socialist, a dictator, believed in eugenics and social Darwinism, the power of the state, made people pledge an oath of loyalty to him.

      • Ole Ole Olson
        +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Ole Ole Olson
        January 10, 2011 at 12:05 am

        If Hitler was a “socialist” as you claim, why did he attack communists, academics, and liberals? Trying to claim the NAZI’s were socialist because it was in their name is like trying to claim North Korea is really a democracy.

        • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 10, 2011 at 12:22 am

          As I understand it, Hitler attacked communists for several reasons; one was because they were the political rivals of the Nazis. I don’t remember the exact quote, but I believe one of Hitler’s cronies actually said “to give him a few minutes with a communist and I’ll turn him into a Nazi…”. Secondly, Hitler had his eyes on the east and it was a political move to attack the communists at home. Obviously, he used the communists as a “whipping boy”. In the area of economics, both Nazism and Communism favored a state controlled economy. Both sides were solidly opposed to a free market system. As for attacking academics and liberals, he was an oppurtunist, just like many of todays politicians, and he could pick and choose as he saw fit. Most socialists that I know of, detest the free market, and favor one of a more socialist stripe. You disagree?

  27. Vote -1 Vote +1JJ
    January 9, 2011 at 9:07 pm

    If Obama can be sued about his birth certificate, Palin can be sued for this.

  28. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Saint Anthony
    January 9, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    I’m sure most right wingers had a similar childhood, the struggle with homosexuality, the struggle with God, to join or not to join the Army, Communism or Nazism, 9mm or .45, camo or trench coat, pondering whether or not to dismember neighborhood pets or whether to massacre your school. Yes, every right wing nut has to start somewhere.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 9, 2011 at 10:07 pm

      Exactly…the guy was a certified nut…but the left is using this like their ideological counterpart Hitler used the Reichstag fire…how convenient.

      • Vote -1 Vote +1Saint Anthony
        January 9, 2011 at 11:05 pm

        Reichstag? Maybe you better read up on that, this isn’t a Reichstag fire. The left’s counterpart is Hitler? Absolutely hilarious; care to throw something in about Freemasons while you’re at it? Sounds like you share the same propensity towards exaggerating issues that the murderer did, it’s a Reichwing thing.

        • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 9, 2011 at 11:14 pm

          Sure. Let’s start with Hitler’s views on economics. As far as I am aware, Hitler was a socialist, and was not an advocate of the free market. If so, this would put Hitler square in the camp of todays American left wingers. If I am wrong, please present evidence from a history book (for example, John Toland’s 2 volume biography of Hitler) or Mein Kampf itself. Now remember, you can say things like this: “…well, over on Fred’s blog he said blah, blah blah…”. LOL.

        • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
          January 9, 2011 at 11:30 pm

          “cickets chirping”

  29. Vote -1 Vote +1AZ Handyman
    January 9, 2011 at 11:55 pm

    If Lougenar mentions Palin as an instigator for his killing spree then she could very well be guilty of culpable homicide in the second or third degree.

    • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 10, 2011 at 12:00 am

      If you have the legal background to explain this further, and properly, I’m all ears. I am a Palin supporter, but I can’t understand how a killer could just point to what someone said and claim that was the reason for their actions, and that said person is somehow culpable.

  30. +2 Vote -1 Vote +1ifarmturnips
    January 10, 2011 at 1:23 am

    I called this when it first happened. I said even though this nuts friends said he was left leaning, the media will find away to blame the right. Sure enough.First they all ignore him being reported as left leaning and proclaimed his idealogy couldnt be linked to any political views. Then they figured out a way to blame palin and angle, and the “vitriol” created by the tea party. Its disgusting. The media is dead in this country, its just an extension of the left. Im embarrassed and ashamed for this guy, and all the “media”

    • +2 Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
      January 10, 2011 at 2:30 am

      I agree. One thing that stands out to me with this murderer are the books on his favorites list. On one end he has “The Communist Manifesto” and on the other end “We the Living” by Ayn Rand, certainly polar opposites if ever there was such a thing. I have not heard anything about whether or not the shooter had anything other than a high school education (if that), but my guess is he didn’t. I know many people who read a book per week, on various subjects, but left to themselves, and without a higher education, don’t have much of a clue how to interpret what they have read; I would say this is especially true in regard to Karl Marx and Ayn Rand. This fellow, I am almost sure, wouldn’t have a real clue, and couldn’t defend, anything he believed in, and could be shown, on a witness stand, to be incoherent. I believe, under questioning, this is what we will find; he borrowed a little from Marx, a little from Rand, some from the TV, and it produced a garbled tragic mess. But to simply label him a right winger is just crazy, and is just as incoherent, if not worse, because people with an education should know better.

  31. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Common Sense
    January 10, 2011 at 7:14 am

    This entire discussion is ridiculous and another tactic by the anti-2nd amendment crowd to push their agenda. Yes, Palin and Angle made poor choices in their words and pictures but to hold them in any way accountable for this nut job’s actions is no different than holding Ozzy Osbourne responsible for anyone who committed suicide while listening to his music.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Marko
      January 10, 2011 at 7:11 pm

      But Osbourne never instructed his fans, by name and offered (false) reasons, for them to kill themselves.

      The Right, including Palin, targets opponents by name and on a map and vilifies them by accusing them of treason. For the offense of having a difference of opinion of how to solve the nation’s problems.

  32. +2 Vote -1 Vote +1RJ
    January 10, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Is Sarah is remotely responsible for this nut job’s actions, then Hollywood and the movies for the last 30 yrs are responsible for all the violent actions in this country.

    Yea right….put the blame where it lies, he chose to arm up and murder for his own twisted reasons.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Marko
      January 10, 2011 at 7:06 pm

      Palin’s attacks on her political opponents legitimatize execution. She vilifies them as traitors to the nation. They are targeted, planned, designer attacks. Certainly her most unstable and violent fans seeks her approval and are anxious to do her bidding. “don’t retreat, reload” she said. And he tried to.

      • Vote -1 Vote +1Howling Winds
        January 11, 2011 at 2:30 pm

        So did Al Gore. Remember his words about Bush; “He betrayed us…he preyed on our fears…”.

  33. Vote -1 Vote +1RJ
    January 10, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    If…Sarah…not is

  34. Vote -1 Vote +1John Bryans Fontaine
    January 10, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    If one googles johnbryansfontaine and Sarah Palin, he or she will discover that I vociferously oppose Palin’s politics. However, she does have an Absolute Right to Free Speech, no matter how much I happen disagree with her.

    Charging Palin in connection with the shootings would be PC Stalinism at it’s worst.

  35. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Tony
    January 10, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    I live in Tucson. The name that is coming up the most regarding who stirred up the most hatred towards Gabby Giffords is that of Garet Lewis of KNST. I’m sure he was ordered to do so by Clear Channel, but this man spend months calling Gabby everything from stupid and a liar. He is commonly referred to as a misogynist corporate shill. Last fall, he was doing a 1-2 hour hate about Giffords and Grijalva everyday on the radio. The justice department should subpeona the tapes of the show and compare Lewis’ rhetoric with the shooter’s. They were both obsessed with how “stupid” Gabby supposedly is. I hope that the family members get an attorney and file a class action suit against Clear channel for al the radio hate against Gabby. It also might not be a good idea to file suit against the Koch brothers – if a link can be shown between their money and the Tea party. Sarah Palin is an ignorant puppet. I think the survivors should follow the money and sue the bastards that are funding the hate — for negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, whatever. Loughner may have pulled the trigger, but Garet Lewis and clear channel handed him a loaded gun and pointed it at Gabby (and Raul Grijalva). There should be some legal accountability for reckless behavior when it results in death and serious injury.

  36. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Marko
    January 10, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    My goodness. How in the world could anyone possibly think a group that calls themselves the TEA PARTY would be proponents of violent revolution?

    • -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 10, 2011 at 8:28 pm

      This is either a good, satirical joke, or a completely disingenuous comment. The Tea Party (as in Boston Tea Party, not Sunday afternoon with crumpets) has reveled in Guns, God, and Country… brandished their second amendment remedies, and called to take their country back, by any means necessary. If this was a joke, good one. If not, well, ‘nuf said.

  37. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Marko
    January 10, 2011 at 7:01 pm

    The problem is the demonization of opponents as traitors strokes the crazed, (who may have secretly harbored fantasies of violence and murder all their lives), to the level of a patriot hero. At least in his own mind. Instead of seeking medical help he’ll seek an award.

  38. Vote -1 Vote +1ANTIFA
    January 10, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    I think the biggest point is that this wasn’t simply political rhetoric. These were instructions about definite actions – use second amendment remedies – gun violence – against a specifically targeted individual. This isn’t just rhetoric. This was a fatwah called against Giffords, as well as others. Putting these sort of requests and directions out publicly, for some nut-job to act on, is no different than meeting privately with someone to request that they perform the act. This is not rhetoric. These were statements that called for certain actions against certain people. This is a very different animal than political rhetoric. The fact that someone followed these instructions makes them guilty of their crime, but does not make Palin and Angle innocent, they share in the blame for this. These legal questions must at least be investigated, not just dismissed out-of-hand.

  39. Vote -1 Vote +1Bofa
    January 10, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    I know what is just, and what is fair, can be two different things. There are many irresponsible things that are not necessarily illegal. That said, this post makes a very interesting point about the connection being specific, rather than general. The message that can be gleaned is basically ‘use a gun against these people.’ You’re right. This isn’t simply rhetoric. This is something much more sinister.

  40. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Julie
    January 10, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    So many people need a lesson on the conditions of causality: 1.Time Order, X must precede Y; 2. Association, X must be related to Y; and 3. Control, i.e. all other potential causes must be ruled out either procedurally or statistically. Therefore, before you say X caused Y, make sure you have satisfied the three conditions!!!!

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 10, 2011 at 10:51 pm

      #1 and #2 exist. Their directions preceded the act, and are associated in that they are the action prescribed against an identified target. A statement from Mr. Loughner , that he was following those directions, would provide #3.

  41. Vote -1 Vote +1ifarmturnips
    January 10, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    Why do all my comments not get posted? am i blocked?

    • Vote -1 Vote +1ifarmturnips
      January 10, 2011 at 10:39 pm

      Ill try again. There is an excellent book named The Liberal Mind, by Lyle H. Rossiter MD. In it Dr. Rossiter explains the modern liberalism is caused by a mental disorder, and that ardent liberals dont form opinions and make decisions based on logic and reason. Because of that there is no point in debating most liberals. The best one can hope for is to show logic and reason to those who have simply been misinformed, lied to, and brainwashed by liberal college professors, the media etc.

  42. +2 Vote -1 Vote +1RJ
    January 11, 2011 at 11:30 am

    A liberal mind sees a rifle site, a competent mind sees markers used in a graphics program used to mark items or areas on a map.
    Hey Liam, I been looking through rifle scopes since I was knee high to a short duck, I’ve never seen one where the cross hairs extended beyond the tube. (laws of physics and mechanics kinda prohibit it) therefore your argument that Sarah put the hit on the senator via the map does not hold up.
    Just admit it, you see what you want to see to support your point of view not the truth.
    Gun grabbers and suppressors of free speach have been playing the same game you play for years, ignore facts, spin like a top and declare it is someone elses fault when your idealistic views fall flat.

    • Vote -1 Vote +1Liam Fox
      January 11, 2011 at 3:37 pm

      Palin herself identified them as “bull’s-eyes”

  43. +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Husky Jesus
    January 11, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    The Right are ignorant religious dullards, the left are pompous irreverent cowards, and the rest of us are trapped between them and their false “concern” for our Country. The Tea Party and the newly formed Coffee Party or Democrat Lite answer to the Tea party are even more ridiculous than the parent cabals which birthed them. And the Birthers and Westbourough Baptists? WOW, that is powerful ignorance! But I digress. Neither of the party’s can be trusted, they both have too many interests and paymasters more important than the people.
    Until the People refuse to be pawns and targets in thier agendas by non violent protest and rational debate will any of this ever end. Allright back too our regularly scheduled vapid Left Right discourse. I Love my Country, I fear my Leaders and the IQ of some of our fellow citizens.

    • +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Eagle Driver
      January 14, 2011 at 7:18 am

      Outstanding comment, thank you for articulating sanity in this Left vs Right argument that can only criticize and offer only “my-way-or-the-highway” Hard-line-Left and Hard-line-Right unreasonable solutions.

  44. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Sergio
    January 12, 2011 at 5:33 am

    A very stricking resemblance?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fu5SJbNSTc

  45. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Brandt
    January 12, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Way to go Sarah by stoking the fire even more with an anti-semitic remark. Instead of smiling and nodding while talking about murders and national tragedies, try having some humility. I was compelled to create a visual commentary of her political rhetoric and its effects on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/01/sarah-palin-made-me-do-it.html. Drop by and let me know what you think.

  46. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1Jo Dean
    January 12, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Well, the dude is clearly crazy no matter how you cut it! Guy went totally “Postal”.

    http://www.being-anon.it.tc

  47. Vote -1 Vote +1ifarmturnips
    January 14, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    Democrats have come foward and admitted to using the same words, the same symbols(bullseyes), and the same terminology, and have for years. Its part of political rhetoric and discourse and has been for a long time. Also there is absolutly no evidence that this lunatic was influenced by, or even aware of what Mrs. Angle, and Mrs Palin said. Its sad that liberals would use a tragedy like this to slander, and attack them this way. It just goes to show how scared they are of them, and totally lacking in any objectivity. Liberals have a win at all cost attitude because when they play fair they lose. Seriously, how can any rational person not see whats happening here?

  48. -1 Vote -1 Vote +1PeenHeen
    January 15, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    LOL, Palin is such a tool! IN every sense of the word dude. Wow.

    http://www.being-anon.it.tc